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Post by maurinsky on Sept 25, 2020 7:08:23 GMT -5
Do any of you know any transgender people?
I support a transgender artist on Patreon who I have known since before he was born, and I am friends with his parents. They are both scientists. When their biological daughter asked them to call her by her middle name, Anne, instead of her first name, Kayla, they did so. When she was around 6 years old, she started telling them she was a boy. They started researching. Gender is in the brain. External sexual characteristics are not the same thing as gender. With a supportive family, Kayla began living as Noah in middle school, and had top surgery at 16 with parental permission.
Rowling can have whatever opinions she wants, but real people are going to get hurt with her campaign against transgender women. This is not a make believe thing that doesn't have an impact. Rowling is saying that your sexual parts are the same as gender, and that is just not accurate. Transgender women are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators, which is something Rowling frequently refers to. Quite frankly, her arguments are misandrist - penis = violence against women.
Conversion therapy is something someone who ISN'T the gay person perpetrates against the gay person. Gender reassignment is something a person who feels wrong in their own body seeks. It really isn't the same thing, and conversion therapy is much more damaging.
Re: transgender women in sports - that seems like an extreme path to take to achieve athletic goals for someone who isn't transgender. There is a barrage of psychological tests and there are also some biological markers that are studied when people seek gender reassignment. How huge of a problem do we think this will be.
Can we just let people be who they tell us they are?
I don't enjoy podcasts in general. I always disliked Joe Rogan as an actor/comedian, so I doubt I would enjoy his podcast. I don't mind talking with people I disagree with, but he is not a thoughtful interviewer, from the bits I've heard.
Jordan Peterson is a gateway drug to alt-right/incel/Proud Boy bullshit.
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emmjay
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Post by emmjay on Sept 25, 2020 7:42:38 GMT -5
I have a student who identifies as trans and I think of them every time this topic comes up. They are extremely fragile from a mental health standpoint and the parents are not supportive. I worry about this kid literally every day.
My problem with Rowling is that she seems to think trans people are inflexible and unwilling to listen to her viewpoint, but she won’t listen to them either. Like I said, for the “people who menstruate” example, she said something that was incorrect and then refused to back down. And what point is she trying to make by making the murderer in her book a man who dresses in women’s clothing? Why would she do that after all of this controversy? I would imagine that was deliberate, which is shitty.
For the sports, I don’t know if it is a big problem or not. From a numbers standpoint, I would guess not but I know there have been cases in the news in recent years. If the question is whether or not I think trans women are going to take over women’s sports and shut out biological females, the answer is obviously no. But my initial reaction to it on an individual basis is that it doesn’t seem fair. I’m happy to look at evidence showing otherwise, just like I’m willing to read that book AC mentioned.
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emmjay
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Post by emmjay on Sept 25, 2020 7:45:58 GMT -5
And yeah, Jordan Peterson. Part of my job is identifying students who are at risk of being radicalised online and Peterson, Shapiro, etc are definitely “of concern” when white teenaged boys start following them. That also has to do with google and YouTube algorithms, and gaming platforms, but it’s a valid concern when a middle schooler knows who Ben Shapiro even is.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 8:01:37 GMT -5
As a matter of point, I do know quite a few transgender people. I use their pronouns and names of choice without hesitation. This isn’t about the existence of or hatred for trans people. One can firmly believe that trans people are people and deserving of respect and care, and also think there is a significant problem with young teen girls experiencing rapid onset gender dysphoria and receiving questionable, harmful treatment, and also think that girls sports should be for biological girls.
So much of trans activism is misogyny.
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Post by maurinsky on Sept 25, 2020 8:58:16 GMT -5
Can you explain how you see trans activism as misogyny?
There are markers for transgender that start much younger than adolescence. It is very common for a transgender person to reject a very feminine or very masculine name if they don't have the same gender as their biological parts indicate.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 9:25:17 GMT -5
When women suddenly don’t matter in women’s spaces, that is misogyny. When biological males feel entitled to be in women’s spaces and women are told to suck it up, and are harassed when they complain, that is misogyny. When lesbians are told they must date biological males, that is misogyny.
In “Irreversible Damage” the phenomenon of rapid onset gender dysphoria is discussed. I am seeing it a LOT both personally and professionally. Young teen girls are announcing themselves as trans and receiving treatment, but they had *zero* markers. It’s new and it should be transient, but since it’s now verboten to question anything trans related, no one is stopping to say wait, maybe there is some else going on here.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 9:56:09 GMT -5
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Sept 25, 2020 10:15:29 GMT -5
When women born with vaginas feelings are pushed aside in their own spaces, in their own sports that they fought long and hard to have, in favor of the feelings of women born with penises - that is absolutely mysogyny. Penises are privileged, even when attached to a person who identifies as a woman. People with penises have been subjugating people with vaginas since the beginning of time, and now the desires of women with penises are taking priority over the desires of women with vaginas.
I see very little difference between a man with a penis saying his needs and desires are more important than those of a woman with a vagina and woman with a penis saying her needs and desires are more important than those of a woman with a vagina.
The penis always wins and women with vaginas have historically been oppressed and subjugated by humans with a penis. It continues. People born with penis privilege always have it, no matter which gender they identify with.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 10:23:06 GMT -5
And when 14 year old girls are given testosterone after *suddenly* coming out as trans, and no one ever questions it, that is misogyny. This is not about kids who have clearly had gender dysphoria since day one.
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Post by stellarfeller on Sept 25, 2020 10:57:10 GMT -5
And when 14 year old girls are given testosterone after *suddenly* coming out as trans, and no one ever questions it, that is misogyny. This is not about kids who have clearly had gender dysphoria since day one. Isn’t there any kind of counselling offered before hormone treatment begins? |
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Post by maurinsky on Sept 25, 2020 11:26:45 GMT -5
I'm not following how a legitimately transgender person M to F, is not considered a woman, whether or not they have had bottom surgery. When someone transitions, they are transitioning to become the gender they know they are in their brain (setting aside for a moment those who are only going through an adolescent phase). Are we only identified by our sexual characteristics? Is a woman who has had a hysterectomy no longer a woman?
I can see the concern about sports, but again - how many boys would go through the transition process simply to achieve better results in sporting competitions? Perhaps amateur sports should be sorted by ability and not gender, anyway - most sports would remain gender distinct, but high performers of either gender could play together. My nephew did co-ed wrestling for years.
My entire life, women have been working to be included at every level. Taking a side step to define woman only as her external sexual parts seems like a back door way to continue a kind of separate but equal approach.
Regarding adolescent identity issues....if there are no genetic markers that indicate the gender, and none of the classic steps that transgender people experience as they try to make their body match their brain exist....that to me seems like a psychological issue. Maybe those kids can express themselves without hormones, and some sort of psychological tests to determine if they just WANT to be the opposite gender because of other issues.
It is much more common for transgender children to be denied the right to be who they are.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 11:34:23 GMT -5
And when 14 year old girls are given testosterone after *suddenly* coming out as trans, and no one ever questions it, that is misogyny. This is not about kids who have clearly had gender dysphoria since day one. Isn’t there any kind of counselling offered before hormone treatment begins? Sure, but it’s a one way direction. The current dictum is “thou shalt not question.” And the thing is, for kiddos who are truly trans and have known this from the get go, that makes perfect sense. They have already spent their lives being questioned. But these kids really do have markers. My friend’s brother was born a girl, and it’s striking to look back on school photos. All the pre-puberty photos register as “boy” and he always insisted on a non-feminine nickname. But then there is another friend whose daughter gladly wore dresses up until middle school. Should those two children really be treated on the same no-question philosophy? I currently have two very close friends with trans children—one MTF and one FTM—and honestly I am shocked at how quickly everything progressed to hormones. For one kid it’s been a relief and a blessing. I am so grateful for that medical care. For the other kiddo, there are some signings mental health issues that are being rather ignored. It’s not that I think this kid is making up their feelings, but that I don’t think issues are being addressed, and when that is the case, how do we really know that transitioning is the answer? But the effects of the hormones don’t just disappear if it turns out to be the wrong choice. |
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 11:39:01 GMT -5
Mo, I don’t see anyone saying that trans women aren’t women, or that boys are becoming girls in order to win races.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Sept 25, 2020 11:58:55 GMT -5
I'm not following how a legitimately transgender person M to F, is not considered a woman, whether or not they have had bottom surgery. When someone transitions, they are transitioning to become the gender they know they are in their brain (setting aside for a moment those who are only going through an adolescent phase). Are we only identified by our sexual characteristics? Is a woman who has had a hysterectomy no longer a woman? I can see the concern about sports, but again - how many boys would go through the transition process simply to achieve better results in sporting competitions? Perhaps amateur sports should be sorted by ability and not gender, anyway - most sports would remain gender distinct, but high performers of either gender could play together. My nephew did co-ed wrestling for years. My entire life, women have been working to be included at every level. Taking a side step to define woman only as her external sexual parts seems like a back door way to continue a kind of separate but equal approach. Regarding adolescent identity issues....if there are no genetic markers that indicate the gender, and none of the classic steps that transgender people experience as they try to make their body match their brain exist....that to me seems like a psychological issue. Maybe those kids can express themselves without hormones, and some sort of psychological tests to determine if they just WANT to be the opposite gender because of other issues. It is much more common for transgender children to be denied the right to be who they are. Literally no one has said these things... no one has said that trans women aren’t women, and no one has said that boys would transition to excel at sports. Where on Earth did you read that? |
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Sept 25, 2020 12:05:31 GMT -5
Do any of you know any transgender people? [ Yes, numerous. When I was in college I was the only biological female employed in one of the largest And long-standing gay nightclubs in Boston. Literally almost every friend I made from age 18-25 was either homosexual or trans. In addition to my personal trans friends I have many patients who are trans, and we openly discuss their medical concerns and experiences often. Someone who has a different opinion than the opinion you happen to hold might actually know more about an experience than you - not less! Imagine that! 🙄 |
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Sept 25, 2020 12:09:21 GMT -5
I'm not following how a legitimately transgender person M to F, is not considered a woman, whether or not they have had bottom surgery. When someone transitions, they are transitioning to become the gender they know they are in their brain (setting aside for a moment those who are only going through an adolescent phase). Are we only identified by our sexual characteristics? Is a woman who has had a hysterectomy no longer a woman? I can see the concern about sports, but again - how many boys would go through the transition process simply to achieve better results in sporting competitions? Perhaps amateur sports should be sorted by ability and not gender, anyway - most sports would remain gender distinct, but high performers of either gender could play together. My nephew did co-ed wrestling for years. My entire life, women have been working to be included at every level. Taking a side step to define woman only as her external sexual parts seems like a back door way to continue a kind of separate but equal approach. Regarding adolescent identity issues....if there are no genetic markers that indicate the gender, and none of the classic steps that transgender people experience as they try to make their body match their brain exist....that to me seems like a psychological issue. Maybe those kids can express themselves without hormones, and some sort of psychological tests to determine if they just WANT to be the opposite gender because of other issues. It is much more common for transgender children to be denied the right to be who they are. Literally no one has said these things... no one has said that trans women aren’t women, and no one has said that boys would transition to excel at sports. Where on Earth did you read that? I literally said that humans born with a penis have privilege. That privilege exists to whether They identify as male or female or something else. |
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 12:10:15 GMT -5
To be clear, I use pronouns and names of choice. That is basic human respect. I also think that lived experience matters. Caitlyn Jenner was a man for a very, very long time, so she cannot possibly share the lived experience of a cis woman of the same age. So when Caitlyn Jenner is considered a representative of women, that means that women who have been women for a lifetime, are dismissed. That is misogyny. Being part of a space ought not mean taking over a space.
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Post by maurinsky on Sept 25, 2020 12:39:59 GMT -5
AC, I can understand that perspective. I just don't think there is a way to enforce it that won't end up being exclusionary and potentially dangerous to those who were unfortunate enough to be born into a body that did not match their gender.
I don't think it applies to excluding someone who lived most of their life as a man and then transitioned from using a ladies room.
GOF, I wasn't trying to play some kind of gotcha move - I was curious. My experience with transgender people has been mostly folks who transitioned as adults and experienced a ton of painful rejection from their families, both M to F and F to M, but the one I know best is Noah, who I knew identified as a boy when he was very young and was fortunate to have parents who didn't push him to just conform, but instead looked into it and learned about it.
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Post by alicechalmers on Sept 25, 2020 12:52:11 GMT -5
I think that in the vast, vast majority of cases it’s a non issue. But I also think that girl athletes matter, and if being excluded from girls’ sports is part of transitioning from male to female then I am sorry and that sucks but some things just suck. I don’t think it’s reasonable to negatively affect others in the name of fake fairness. Frankly, I also think it’s a valuable part of learning to be a woman.
If a person transitions to being a woman and uses that as an opportunity to defeat and dominate other women, what does that say about how that person views and values womanhood? Fallon Fox is a good example. He lived for decades as a man, served in the military as a man, transitioned, and then used the transition as an avenue to literally beat up women. That is fucked.up. and I don’t think we need to allow that because we’re so afraid of appearing as bigots. Back to Rogan for a moment, but he came down hard on Fallon Fox fighting women without disclosing her biological male background. Trans activists were outraged that he would say such a thing. I want to know, where was the outrage over the fact that a woman had her face fractured?
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Post by villanelle on Sept 25, 2020 15:22:07 GMT -5
Can you explain how you see trans activism as misogyny? There are markers for transgender that start much younger than adolescence. It is very common for a transgender person to reject a very feminine or very masculine name if they don't have the same gender as their biological parts indicate. I think it's misogynistic to say that trans women's desire to have a space to compete in sports is more important that biological women's desire for same. Particularly given the rational for splitting sports by sex (not gender) in the first place. Women's sports were a huge step forward for biological women. Now, they are expected to cede that territory to people with a Y chromosome who absolutely have a biological advantage (the entire reason women's sports were created in the first place). And I do firmly believe that part of that expectation comes from the general [very sexist] expectation that women are supposed to give and nurture and compromise. So people who grew up with the privilege of being perceived as boys and men (even if to them it was simultaneously a burden, and they also had the burden of being in the wrong bodies/living the wrong gender) take that male privilege (even though yes, they are no longer or never were male gendered) and shove women out of their own female spaces. Sorry, but women's sports are no longer a place for women to compete against other biological females (separated from men due to *biological* differences). STFU and take it, because that's what women do. Be "nice" and inclusive and set aside your own needs and hopes and dreams for someone else's. Women's sports weren't created so that people who wanted to wear make up and dresses (as one example of typical female gender expression) could have a place to compete. They were created so that people with different *biological* situations could compete against one another. It sucks, very much, that for someone born into the wrong body, that's not available to them--that there's no sporting category that fits. But changing that means taking it away from biological women and undoing the entire reason the concept was created, and how is that okay? Progress for one group at the expense of another. Biological women, a group that is also under-privileged, lose out, again, to the Y chromosomes. As they always do. And that's what's misogynistic, with the "...gyn..." in the word being "female biological sex" in that case. XX loses out to XY when there's a clash, as has been happening for centuries. It seems to me that intersectionality always runs in the opposite direction of women. The point was supposed to be that all under-privileged groups banded together to fight more effectively for change for all their groups. Instead, women who speak up about their rights are "Karens" who need to STFU because of their other privileges. STFU because you aren't BIPOC, or non-cis. But no one tells a transgender man--and rightfully so!!-- to STFU because he's not a woman and therefore his male privilege means he can't complain about non-cis issues. Sorry about the increased violence you face for being transgendered and non-cis, but you're a "Chad" (or whatever the male "Karen" is) for complaining because you don't face the same hiring and pay issues (among many others) as women since you go by the name Fred and present to the world as male (which you, of course, are even if you were born without a penis and with XX chromosomes) <---said no one, ever. But suddenly when the category of "minority" that a person does have is "bio female", they are supposed to quietly support all other under-privileged groups, even when it is at their own expense. Female gender has become that also-ran for groups needing to make progress and allowed to speak up about it. And it's fucking bullshit and I'm tired of it. And I do firmly believe it's that way primarily because the world still expects women to give and never demand. I hope that our non-cis friends continue to see progress, and I wish it were less slow and painful. Do they wish the same for me? Not, apparently, if it's one or the other. And yes, I not only know transgender people, but I consider one to be a good friend. |
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