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Post by villanelle on Mar 1, 2020 14:37:30 GMT -5
On a different message board, someone I follow is attempting to forgive someone as their Lenten exercise.
It's made me think a lot about a few people at the center of the darkest spots in my life (#metoo). And it's made me thoughtful about forgiveness in general. As I mull all of this and decide if I want to forgive and then if I can forgive, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Should we generally always try to forgive eventually? What is the value in forgiveness, for both the forgiver and the forgivee? Why do we forgive? What exactly does forgiveness look like? What defines forgiveness and how do we know if we've obtained it? Is there any value in holding on and *not* forgiving? Do we owe ourselves or our transgressors forgiveness, or at least trying to forgive?
Have you forgiven someone who deeply, deeply wronged you? If you want to share, what was their transgression? How did it feel to forgive? Or, who have you not forgiven, and do you have any interest in doing so? Do you think that holding onto the offense (how else to describe that?) hurts you? Serves you?
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mare
Full Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by mare on Mar 1, 2020 14:57:13 GMT -5
What does forgiveness mean? I think it's a meaningless word in many respects. Does it mean that you no longer let a particular person who wronged you take up space in your head or cause you anxiety or depression? Then yes, you should try to get to a place of forgiveness.
I never understood the reason a person asks for forgiveness from their victims. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person who did the wrong and everything to do with the person who was wronged.
"Please forgive me" is usually, imo, a selfish request of the person who did something bad. A way of making themselves feel better.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Mar 1, 2020 15:09:13 GMT -5
I’m not sure who said this (Oprah?) but I read a definition once of Forgiveness.
Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been different.
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Post by villanelle on Mar 1, 2020 15:54:28 GMT -5
I’m not sure who said this (Oprah?) but I read a definition once of Forgiveness. Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been different. Wow. Lots for me to digest there.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Mar 1, 2020 16:25:31 GMT -5
I’m not sure who said this (Oprah?) but I read a definition once of Forgiveness. Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been different. Wow. Lots for me to digest there. It was a different way for me to think about it too.
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Post by Peanut on Mar 1, 2020 17:42:27 GMT -5
I’m not sure who said this (Oprah?) but I read a definition once of Forgiveness. Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been different. I had to Google it. The full quote is: It's a solid definition, especially in full. "Moving forward" does not involve forgetting what transpired. Mare hit the nail on the head when she mentioned how the term "forgiveness" is often used in a selfish manner, basically when a person is seeking absolution...a blank slate for their sake (I am not referencing the Catholic version of absolution, but a more earthly version). I have forgiven many people their trangressions, without absolving them of responsibility for their actions.
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Post by shaena on Mar 1, 2020 20:38:10 GMT -5
Yeah I like that. For me it has everything to do with me not letting the person who wronged me ruin my life going forward. I have spent too many years wasted on being angry and/or thinking I would get an apology or comeuppance. I don't really forgive I just let them go.
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Post by mimi on Mar 1, 2020 21:27:45 GMT -5
I forgave the father of my oldest daughter. (It was an abusive relationship that I ended shortly after she was born). I forgave him for my benefit, not his, & to enable me to move on. I don’t have any bitterness against him anymore. I’ve met him at social occasions back home a couple of times over the years since then. I can talk to him as an old acquaintance but he doesn’t have any power to hurt me anymore. I haven’t forgotten what happened but it doesn’t matter anymore. I’m at peace.
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Post by villanelle on Mar 1, 2020 21:31:42 GMT -5
With the boss who assaulted me at work, I'm angry when I think about it. I'm pissed at him, and that the workplace that humiliated me about it and did nothing to protect me from him after the fact.
So yeah, I'm pissed. But the anger is sort of detached, I guess. It's edges are for more rounded than they were in the days, weeks, and months after it happened. And I very rarely think about the incident at all.
It's something that happened to me. And there's pain and humiliation about it. But it's not consumptive. It's almost numb. I know that past won't ever change and I know I will never receive an apology, and that his life likely will proceed the same as it would have if he hadn't done what he did (IOW, no comeuppance). It's a part of my past, not a part of my life.
Do I wish the past was different? Of course. Do I have hope it could have been different? Of course not. I don't believe in time travel, and hope is a future-facing emotion. So I'm not entirely sure what the quote actually means. I wish what happened to me wouldn't have happened. Hope doesn't come in to it because of course it did happen. I can't retroactively hope it out of existence. I accept it for what it was--a really shitty, scary, fucked-up thing.
I think the guy who did it is a POS, but I don't wish him ill. Does that mean I have forgiven him? I don't know. Because if I saw him on the street tomorrow and he said, "hey, do you forgive me?", I'd likely keep walking and say nothing at all.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Mar 1, 2020 21:47:44 GMT -5
With the boss who assaulted me at work, I'm angry when I think about it. I'm pissed at him, and that the workplace that humiliated me about it and did nothing to protect me from him after the fact. So yeah, I'm pissed. But the anger is sort of detached, I guess. It's edges are for more rounded than they were in the days, weeks, and months after it happened. And I very rarely think about the incident at all. It's something that happened to me. And there's pain and humiliation about it. But it's not consumptive. It's almost numb. I know that past won't ever change and I know I will never receive an apology, and that his life likely will proceed the same as it would have if he hadn't done what he did (IOW, no comeuppance). It's a part of my past, not a part of my life. Do I wish the past was different? Of course. Do I have hope it could have been different? Of course not. I don't believe in time travel, and hope is a future-facing emotion. So I'm not entirely sure what the quote actually means. I wish what happened to me wouldn't have happened. Hope doesn't come in to it because of course it did happen. I can't retroactively hope it out of existence. I accept it for what it was--a really shitty, scary, fucked-up thing. I think the guy who did it is a POS, but I don't wish him ill. Does that mean I have forgiven him? I don't know. Because if I saw him on the street tomorrow and he said, "hey, do you forgive me?", I'd likely keep walking and say nothing at all. I don’t think forgiveness is for him, it’s for you.
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Post by alicechalmers on Mar 1, 2020 21:50:00 GMT -5
Forgiveness is a two way street. It needn’t be given if it hasn’t been earned,
There is a book called “How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To” by Janis Spring, that addresses the process of forgiveness, and the difference between forgiveness and acceptance.
I am not a fan of placing the burden of forgiveness on the person who was originally harmed.
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Post by villanelle on Mar 1, 2020 22:16:26 GMT -5
With the boss who assaulted me at work, I'm angry when I think about it. I'm pissed at him, and that the workplace that humiliated me about it and did nothing to protect me from him after the fact. So yeah, I'm pissed. But the anger is sort of detached, I guess. It's edges are for more rounded than they were in the days, weeks, and months after it happened. And I very rarely think about the incident at all. It's something that happened to me. And there's pain and humiliation about it. But it's not consumptive. It's almost numb. I know that past won't ever change and I know I will never receive an apology, and that his life likely will proceed the same as it would have if he hadn't done what he did (IOW, no comeuppance). It's a part of my past, not a part of my life. Do I wish the past was different? Of course. Do I have hope it could have been different? Of course not. I don't believe in time travel, and hope is a future-facing emotion. So I'm not entirely sure what the quote actually means. I wish what happened to me wouldn't have happened. Hope doesn't come in to it because of course it did happen. I can't retroactively hope it out of existence. I accept it for what it was--a really shitty, scary, fucked-up thing. I think the guy who did it is a POS, but I don't wish him ill. Does that mean I have forgiven him? I don't know. Because if I saw him on the street tomorrow and he said, "hey, do you forgive me?", I'd likely keep walking and say nothing at all. I don’t think forgiveness is for him, it’s for you. I guess I don't think I need it (or maybe that means I've done it?). This isn't something that has an affect on my daily, weekly, monthly existence. If it comes up (like now, or during metoo) then I think about it, but that's about it. So if forgiveness is about me, I guess I don't see the point because it doesn't seem like it would change anything. It wouldn't lift a burden, as far as I can tell.
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Post by maurinsky on Mar 2, 2020 8:34:30 GMT -5
I think forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself as well as the person who receives it from you, and each person must make their own decision if they should give this gift.
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Post by Sprockey on Mar 2, 2020 9:50:03 GMT -5
I have been able to lead a pretty fulfilling life without going through a forgiveness process of those who have wronged or hurt me.
It feels like a meaningless exercise. I just keep looking forward and not backwards.
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Post by nansel on Mar 2, 2020 10:24:43 GMT -5
I'm with Sprockey. I don't feel the need to consider the couple of people I probably could "forgive". I'd rather just leave them in my rearview mirror and keep chugging along. It did take me time to get to this point. When I was trying to figure out what the hell happened and why, it drove me nuts. And I eventually chalked it up to them having issues. No reason, no logic behind any of it, therefore no real answers. So the only thing to do is to move on. The only time I could imagine even going to the "I forgive them" place is if someone approached me out of the blue and apologized. If they honestly said "I was a horrible human being to you and I regret it". Then I might think about it, depending on factors I likely can't think of at the moment. Because it's never happened.
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Post by puddleglum on Mar 2, 2020 11:09:09 GMT -5
The value of forgiveness depends on who is doing the forgiving. We all need God's forgiveness because we have all sinned. This forgiveness can't be earned. We receive it as a gift if we repent of our sins and place our faith in Jesus Christ. If we have been forgiven we must forgive others because God has commanded it.
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Post by jen on Mar 2, 2020 11:39:43 GMT -5
I think if you’ve been wronged severely and don’t hold bitterness, you are fortunate.
Some people get trapped by that anger. For them, forgiving can be freeing.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Mar 2, 2020 12:46:04 GMT -5
The value of forgiveness depends on who is doing the forgiving. We all need God's forgiveness because we have all sinned. This forgiveness can't be earned. We receive it as a gift if we repent of our sins and place our faith in Jesus Christ. If we have been forgiven we must forgive others because God has commanded it. Except not everyone believes in your version of god and not everyone believes in Jesus, so your answer really only applies to you and is basically useless, and also insensitive to the original poster as her religious beliefs may not align perfectly to yours. Maybe you should go ask your Jesus for forgiveness about being insensitive to others religions.
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Post by maurinsky on Mar 2, 2020 13:08:41 GMT -5
I forgave my father, who was an abusive alcoholic, but he also asked for forgiveness and changed his ways. If he hadn't, I'm not sure I would have been able to move past it. And even moving past it isn't really accurate, because sometimes that PTSD comes back unexpectedly.
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Post by villanelle on Mar 2, 2020 13:58:41 GMT -5
I have been able to lead a pretty fulfilling life without going through a forgiveness process of those who have wronged or hurt me. It feels like a meaningless exercise. I just keep looking forward and not backwards. Thanks for saying this. I think I was starting to feel a little... I don't even know... about this thought adventure I've started. I really can't even tell if I've forgiven him, which seems odd. But the more I think on it, the more the entire concept feels pretty arbitrary. I'm not hurt by whatever it is I still feel or don't feel about him. I'm not, in Jen's words, "trapped by anger". When I started this, it seemed like forgiveness was a noble goal. But since I don't believe in PG's god, there is no religious component for me. I think that moving beyond anger is a worthwhile goal, as is getting to a place where your feelings toward the person aren't a part of your everyday existence. But I am already there. So being able to say the words "I forgive you" to him, seems like such a random thing. I probably would struggle to say that because he has done nothing to me to show that he is sorry or even sees the error of what he did. If he feels guilt, well, he probably should and maybe that guilt will keep him from doing it to someone else. But what he feels about violating me isn't my concern and it's certainly not mine to fix. He can do that hard work. Or not. I don't care.
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