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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 14:49:52 GMT -5
Extremely detailed recollection, don't ya think?
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 14:50:50 GMT -5
Acting director of national intelligence threatened to resign if he couldn’t speak freely before Congress www.washingtonpost.com/The acting Director of National Intelligence who threatened to resign if asked to stonewall Congress will be transmitting the full whistleblower complaint to Congress *today* Ok I’m confused because a couple of paragraphs down it says No- I couldn't read it because I don't subscribe
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emmjay
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Post by emmjay on Sept 25, 2019 14:51:00 GMT -5
Why don't we read it first before making any judgements? Sounds like the Whistleblower was trying to do the right thing.
I just find it ironic that so many people are willing to just accept whatever the whistleblower says as fact when they weren't even there, but those same people are skeptical of the memo about the call that was written by people who were there. That seems to be an incredibly lacking display of critical thinking to me to believe second-hand witnesses over a first-hand account.
Unfortunately for Trump, he is a proven liar, which is why people are skeptical of him. I would say taking him at his word shows an incredible lack of critical thinking. And/or a huge amount of gullibility. Again, people don’t like to admit when they have been conned.
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 14:51:14 GMT -5
I just find it ironic that so many people are willing to just accept whatever the whistleblower says as fact when they weren't even there, but those same people are skeptical of the memo about the call that was written by people who were there. That seems to be an incredibly lacking display of critical thinking to me to believe second-hand witnesses over a first-hand account.
First of all, everyone should want to know what the whistleblower report says. Maybe then we can decide what we think of it. Second, the report of the call is the WH's version, which has a vested interest in not making Trump look bad. It was 30 minute call. The notes were not 30 minutes of conversational detail. Imagine if you will this was the Hillary White House...you'd be OK with a Cliff Notes version of a call when the nature of the call sparked impeachment inquiries?
If it was Hillary, the note-takers would probably be dead by now and their phones and computers thrown into an active volcano, LOL!
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mare
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Post by mare on Sept 25, 2019 14:51:56 GMT -5
Really? LOL Seriously, Rich, I thought you were smarter than this.
So you disagree that having decent reporting is actually an important role in our democratic system of government?
Yeah, cause believing the current US news media is akin to Russian pravda is so reasonable...
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 14:54:04 GMT -5
Extremely detailed recollection, don't ya think?
I can't answer that. It was a summary of a 30 minute call.
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 14:55:50 GMT -5
And WTF is Guiliani saying he read the Whistleblower's report before Congress has even seen it??
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Post by Tpatt100 on Sept 25, 2019 14:56:37 GMT -5
I just find it ironic that so many people are willing to just accept whatever the whistleblower says as fact when they weren't even there, but those same people are skeptical of the memo about the call that was written by people who were there. That seems to be an incredibly lacking display of critical thinking to me to believe second-hand witnesses over a first-hand account.
First of all, everyone should want to know what the whistleblower report says. Maybe then we can decide what we think of it. Second, the report of the call is the WH's version, which has a vested interest in not making Trump look bad. It was 30 minute call. The notes were not 30 minutes of conversational detail. Imagine if you will this was the Hillary White House...you'd be OK with a Cliff Notes version of a call when the nature of the call sparked impeachment inquiries? You are talking about the party that wouldn’t accept a Certificate of Live Birth and actually submitted numerous legislation because of it lol.
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 15:02:40 GMT -5
The Ukraine call 'transcript' is pretty darn close to a smoking gun1. Trump, after congratulating Zelensky on his win, very quickly establishes that the United States has been very, very good to Ukraine. "I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are." 2. He then makes clear that the US does a lot more for Ukraine than Ukraine does for the US. "I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very, very good to Ukraine." 3. Trump directly asks Zelensky to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter."There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me." 4. He suggests that Zelensky should talk to his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani and Attorney General Bill Barr."I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it." 5. And then Trump reiterates that suggestion"I will tell Rudy and Attorney General Barr to call." So, in sum: The President of the United States tells a foreign leader that we do a lot for his country and his country hasn't done enough for us. Then he says that it would be super nice if Ukraine looked into allegations -- debunked by all independent fact checkers and there is no evidence of wrongdoing by either Joe or Hunter Biden, it's worth noting -- that his main rival in the 2020 race did some unethical things in the country. Because, he asserts, it sounds "horrible" to him. And then reiterates -- several times! -- that the Ukrainian president needs to talk to his personal lawyer and his administration's attorney general about all of this.
Regarding Biden:
thehill.com/opinion/white-house/436816-joe-bidens-2020-ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived
Two years after leaving office, Joe Biden couldn’t resist the temptation last year to brag to an audience of foreign policy specialists about the time as vice president that he strong-armed Ukraine into firing its top prosecutor.
In his own words, with video cameras rolling, Biden described how he threatened Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in March 2016 that the Obama administration would pull $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees, sending the former Soviet republic toward insolvency, if it didn’t immediately fire Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin.
“I said, ‘You’re not getting the billion.’ I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money,’” Biden recalled telling Poroshenko.
“Well, son of a bitch, he got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time,” Biden told the Council on Foreign Relations event, insisting that President Obama was in on the threat.
Interviews with a half-dozen senior Ukrainian officials confirm Biden’s account, though they claim the pressure was applied over several months in late 2015 and early 2016, not just six hours of one dramatic day.
…
As a result, the Biden family appeared to have escaped the potential for an embarrassing inquiry overseas in the final days of the Obama administration and during an election in which Democrat Hillary Clinton was running for president in 2016.
But then, as Biden’s 2020 campaign ramped up over the past year, Lutsenko — the Ukrainian prosecutor that Biden once hailed as a “solid” replacement for Shokin — began looking into what happened with the Burisma case that had been shut down.
Lutsenko told me that, while reviewing the Burisma investigative files, he discovered “members of the Board obtained funds as well as another U.S.-based legal entity, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, for consulting services.”
Lutsenko said some of the evidence he knows about in the Burisma case may interest U.S. authorities and he’d like to present that information to new U.S. Attorney General William Barr, particularly the vice president’s intervention.
“Unfortunately, Mr. Biden had correlated and connected this aid with some of the HR (personnel) issues and changes in the prosecutor’s office,” Lutsenko said.
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 15:05:27 GMT -5
Extremely detailed recollection, don't ya think?
I can't answer that. It was a summary of a 30 minute call.
How do we know the length of the call? Not disbelieving you, but I haven't seen that anywhere but here.
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 15:07:19 GMT -5
First of all, everyone should want to know what the whistleblower report says. Maybe then we can decide what we think of it. Second, the report of the call is the WH's version, which has a vested interest in not making Trump look bad. It was 30 minute call. The notes were not 30 minutes of conversational detail. Imagine if you will this was the Hillary White House...you'd be OK with a Cliff Notes version of a call when the nature of the call sparked impeachment inquiries? You are talking about the party that wouldn’t accept a Certificate of Live Birth and actually submitted numerous legislation because of it lol.
Whataboutism?
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 15:07:58 GMT -5
Just posting my research into what constitutes high crimes and misdemeanors en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_StatesImpeachable offenses: "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors" See also: High crimes and misdemeanors The Constitution limits grounds of impeachment to "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors".[2] The precise meaning of the phrase "high Crimes and Misdemeanors" is not defined in the Constitution itself. The notion that only criminal conduct can constitute sufficient grounds for impeachment does not comport with either the views of the founders or with historical practice.[1] Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist 65, described impeachable offenses as arising from “the misconduct of public men, or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust.”[3] Such offenses were “political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself.”[3] According to this reasoning, impeachable conduct could include behavior that violates an official’s duty to the country, even if such conduct is not necessarily a prosecutable offense. Indeed, in the past both houses of Congress have given the phrase “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” a broad reading, “finding that impeachable offenses need not be limited to criminal conduct.”[4][1] The purposes underlying the impeachment process also indicate that non-criminal activity may constitute sufficient grounds for impeachment.[1][5] The purpose of impeachment is not to inflict personal punishment for criminal activity. Instead, impeachment is a “remedial” tool; it serves to effectively “maintain constitutional government” by removing individuals unfit for office.[6][1] Grounds for impeachment include abuse of the particular powers of government office or a violation of the “public trust”—conduct that is unlikely to be barred via statute.[6][4][1] In drawing up articles of impeachment, the House has placed little emphasis on criminal conduct.[1] Less than one third of the articles that the House have adopted have explicitly charged the violation of a criminal statute or used the word “criminal” or “crime” to describe the conduct alleged.[1] Officials have been impeached and removed for drunkenness, biased decision-making, or inducing parties to enter financial transactions, none of which is specifically criminal.[1] Two of the articles against Andrew Johnson were based on rude speech that reflected badly on the office: President Johnson had made “harangues” criticizing the Congress and questioning its legislative authority, refusing to follow laws, and diverting funds allocated in an army appropriations act, each of which brought the presidency “into contempt, ridicule, and disgrace.”[7] A number of individuals have been impeached for behavior incompatible with the nature of the office they hold.[1] Some impeachments have addressed, at least in part, conduct before the individuals assumed their positions: for example, Article IV against Judge Porteous related to false statements to the FBI and Senate in connection with his nomination and confirmation to the court.[1] Congressional materials have cautioned that the grounds for impeachment “do not all fit neatly and logically into categories” because the remedy of impeachment is intended to “reach a broad variety of conduct by officers that is both serious and incompatible with the duties of the office.”[6][1] Congress has identified three general types of conduct that constitute grounds for impeachment, although these categories should not be understood as exhaustive: (1) improperly exceeding or abusing the powers of the office; (2) behavior incompatible with the function and purpose of the office; and (3) misusing the office for an improper purpose or for personal gain
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 15:14:23 GMT -5
I can't answer that. It was a summary of a 30 minute call.
How do we know the length of the call? Not disbelieving you, but I haven't seen that anywhere but here.
I read it in a few places
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 15:21:08 GMT -5
So I guess now we wait to see what comes from the whistleblower....
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Post by Tpatt100 on Sept 25, 2019 15:21:19 GMT -5
I remember reading that before that a President can be impeached for almost anything. The problem is neither party wants to set a precedent just in case it’s their party’s President who does something wrong the next time.
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Post by Sprockey on Sept 25, 2019 15:29:57 GMT -5
I remember reading that before that a President can be impeached for almost anything. The problem is neither party wants to set a precedent just in case it’s their party’s President who does something wrong the next time. I think Pelosi has resisted for a long time for this reason and also because most people don't really have an appetite for it. Let's face it, Trump has one more year (sorry RichB , not 6 ) and we are going to be in full election mode before all of these investigations and articles/reports are done. So it's not like impeaching him hastens anything. He is going to finish his term (and the Senate will never vote to remove him from office)
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 15:36:13 GMT -5
thehill.com/opinion/white-house/441892-ukrainian-embassy-confirms-dnc-contractor-solicited-trump-dirt-in-2016In its most detailed account yet, the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington says a Democratic National Committee (DNC) insider during the 2016 election solicited dirt on Donald Trump’s campaign chairman and even tried to enlist the country's president to help.
In written answers to questions, Ambassador Valeriy Chaly's office says DNC contractor Alexandra Chalupa sought information from the Ukrainian government on Paul Manafort’s dealings inside the country in hopes of forcing the issue before Congress.
Chalupa later tried to arrange for Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to comment on Manafort’s Russian ties on a U.S. visit during the 2016 campaign, the ambassador said.
Chaly says that, at the time of the contacts in 2016, the embassy knew Chalupa primarily as a Ukrainian American activist and learned only later of her ties to the DNC. He says the embassy considered her requests an inappropriate solicitation of interference in the U.S. election.
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Post by RichB on Sept 25, 2019 15:41:08 GMT -5
thehill.com/opinion/white-house/440730-how-the-obama-white-house-engaged-ukraine-to-give-russia-collusionThe efforts eventually led to a September 2016 meeting in which the FBI asked Deripaska if he could help prove Manafort was helping Trump collude with Russia. Deripaska laughed off the notion as preposterous.
Previously, Politico reported that the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington assisted Clinton’s campaign through a DNC contractor. The Ukrainian Embassy acknowledges it got requests for assistance from the DNC staffer to find dirt on Manafort but denies it provided any improper assistance.
Now we have more concrete evidence that the larger Ukrainian government also was being pressed by the Obama administration to help build the Russia collusion narrative. And that onion is only beginning to be peeled.
But what is already confirmed by Ukrainians looks a lot more like assertive collusion with a foreign power than anything detailed in the Mueller report.
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emmjay
Full Member
Posts: 1,734
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Post by emmjay on Sept 25, 2019 15:42:40 GMT -5
Why do you keep posting opinion pieces by John Solomon?
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Post by Tpatt100 on Sept 25, 2019 16:38:16 GMT -5
Ok so let’s impeach Obama and Trump /shrug
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