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Post by villanelle on Oct 13, 2020 14:48:21 GMT -5
So GoF, are you going to acknowledge that your accusation about me dismissing data simply because it doesn't agree with my narrative was completely off base? Also, I find it unbelievably fascinating that Colorado apparently has a near 100% mask compliance rate, apparently. Congratulations. I see people without masks all the time here. Like, every single day, walking by outside my window. (I live on a busy street, a few blocks from a major and popular Main St. type shopping and dining area. Lots of foot traffic, and not just people from the area out walking dogs.) When I went for my flu shot this weekend, there were people without masks, and several with them only covering their mouth, not their nose. That as in about 10 minutes I was inside the store. And we are a fairly educated, fairly liberal community so I'd wager we are on the more mask-compliant side of the equation than less. As for recklessness, I supposed it's like porn--I know it when I see it. If the people at that wedding weren't wearing masks--all of them, all the time (unless actively eating, and then at socially distanced tables with only one family/home per table, then yes, I'd call that reckless, for sure. I wouldn't go out of my way to say it, and certainly wouldn't hurl those words at someone if they or their loved one were sick, but yes, I'd consider it reckless. There's a lot of gray area, but for me, that's well outside gray. If they were masked, if it was a small event (about 20 ppl or fewer), if there was social distancing of the ceremony chairs and any dining seating? That's it's probably not a choice I'd have made, but I don't think I'd *quite* call it reckless. You explained your position, It made sense, I moved on. Would you like me to kiss the ring or something? Is there further discussion you’d like to have on it? Nope, no further discussion required. You made an entirely false and unfounded accusation and when that was explained (again, in addition to the very clear info in the original post), you still don't feel a need to apologize for it. I think everyone's positions are quite clear! |
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 15:21:46 GMT -5
Can we make a list of diseases it’s ok to shame people for?
So far COVID: ok to shame if you feel the patient has acted irresponsibly.[ You don’t know if it sure, but if you feel like it it’s ok to shame them. Got it.br]
How about drug addiction? Shall we shame them too? If they weren’t so damn irresponsible they wouldn’t be addicted to drugs! It affects their families and friends too!
How about folks with a cold? Should we shame them when they go to the store with a sniffle? How do we determine who has a cold in public and who has seasonal allergies? Shall we interrogate everyone for all their potential diseases before we let them into public spaces?
What about lung cancer? Maybe they were a smoker earlier in life! We should totally shame lung cancer patients too. We should make sure that no one can smoke anywhere in public. That will go over super well in Europe, I’m sure.
Where do we draw the line on judging our fellow humans? If someone caught Covid at a BLM rally do they deserve to be shamed? What if it was a Trump rally? They really should’ve have been hanging out in a large group either way right? Does their political affiliation matter when we shame them?
Or maybe, just maybe, we don’t shame sick folks and just treat them like we should treat other humans. With kindness.
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Post by maurinsky on Oct 13, 2020 15:24:02 GMT -5
You have said some things that make me think you think obese people should be ashamed.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 15:31:40 GMT -5
You have said some things that make me think you think obese people should be ashamed. I don’t think anyone should be shamed. I think that people should realize that their actions have consequences to their bodies (whether that action is not brushing their teeth, eating unhealthily without excercize, smoking, going to CardiB’s birthday party in Vegas without a mask, etc), but I don’t feel that is the same as shaming. I wouldn’t tell someone they were an Asshole for going to that party, or to a church... or think they were less of a human. They did something that many people do. I also wouldn’t tell someone they’re an asshoke or call them stupid for smoking or eating poorly, or think they were less than a human. Lots of people do those things for lots of reasons. I do think that when people make those choices (going to a party without a mask, or smoking, or eating poorly) they need to connect those actions to the consequence and accept responsibility for those consequences. For example - you have a lot of tooth decay due to lack of proper brushing. You have Covid because you went to a party and caught it. You have diabetes associated with obesity). But I wouldn’t treat them as less of a person, or any differently as a doctor. Sometimes our actions have consequences on other people’s bodies too. Sometimes our secondhand smoke hurts people we live with. Sometimes our germs infect others. This is part of living in a society where we have interactions with other living beings. It’s unavoidable. Germs happen. People act like people. My job is to treat diseases in people. I don’t care what they did yesterday to get into the situation they’re in, I don’t shame them and honestly it doesn’t matter... and I tell them that. I also tell them very honestly what their situation is and what our options are to improve that situation, and their responsibilities going forward to maintain their improved condition. That’s my job. I think I act pretty similarly towards others in other aspects of life as well. |
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Post by villanelle on Oct 13, 2020 16:26:39 GMT -5
You make it seem like many or even most people in this thread are pro- Covid-shaming. Could you please explain who you are referring to?
I certainly wouldn't tell someone they are an asshole for smoking or eating poorly or for going to a wedding in fall 2020. I don't think they are less than a human.
You mention accepting responsibility for the consequences. One of the issues with Covid is that your [global] actions create consequences for me [global, and also not global]. A rose garden ceremony has made people who live in my metro area sick. They chose to do that, and now that means that their actions have potential consequences for other people. Their actions get the secret service workers sick, and the white house staff sick. And those people get the grocery story worker sick. That grocery store worker may be following every protocol to the letter. He may be exceptionally cautious. But the Rose Garden people's actions have consequences for him. Diabetes and tooth decay have personal consequences. (To the extent that they have larger consequences for society, it is at least far, far less direct.)
And yes, your job is to treat people's health. You'd be a shitty dentist if you added shaming to that. It would be grossly unprofessional. That's a different standard than applies outside of a professional environment. I still wouldn't shame anyone who was sick, but I will judge behaviors I consider to be selfish and reckless.
It may all be part of living in a society, but if it's preventable or able to be mitigated, then another part of living in society is thinking of others. Wouldn't society be far, far better off if people were more willing to sacrifice individually for the greater good? Isn't refusal to do that a big ol' GoFuck yourself to one's fellow man? You've said, repeatedly, how shitty human beings are. But when some of us are discussing disapproval at a specific aspect of that shittiness--the refusal to sacrifice for the greater good or think of others when making these decisions--you seem to get angry and indignant and disgusted.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 17:24:59 GMT -5
You make it seem like many or even most people in this thread are pro- Covid-shaming. Could you please explain who you are referring to? I certainly wouldn't tell someone they are an asshole for smoking or eating poorly or for going to a wedding in fall 2020. I don't think they are less than a human. You mention accepting responsibility for the consequences. One of the issues with Covid is that your [global] actions create consequences for me [global, and also not global]. A rose garden ceremony has made people who live in my metro area sick. They chose to do that, and now that means that their actions have potential consequences for other people. Their actions get the secret service workers sick, and the white house staff sick. And those people get the grocery story worker sick. That grocery store worker may be following every protocol to the letter. He may be exceptionally cautious. But the Rose Garden people's actions have consequences for him. Diabetes and tooth decay have personal consequences. (To the extent that they have larger consequences for society, it is at least far, far less direct.) And yes, your job is to treat people's health. You'd be a shitty dentist if you added shaming to that. It would be grossly unprofessional. That's a different standard than applies outside of a professional environment. I still wouldn't shame anyone who was sick, but I will judge behaviors I consider to be selfish and reckless. It may all be part of living in a society, but if it's preventable or able to be mitigated, then another part of living in society is thinking of others. Wouldn't society be far, far better off if people were more willing to sacrifice individually for the greater good? Isn't refusal to do that a big ol' GoFuck yourself to one's fellow man? You've said, repeatedly, how shitty human beings are. But when some of us are discussing disapproval at a specific aspect of that shittiness--the refusal to sacrifice for the greater good or think of others when making these decisions--you seem to get angry and indignant and disgusted. I just think that there’s a lot of things people are considering” selfish and reckless” that I think aren’t as selfish and reckless as others do. For example: I got on an airplane this weekend. I wore my mask, did everything I was supposed to do. One of my cousins told me I was “morally reprehensible” for doing so. I disagree. 🤷♀️ |
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 13, 2020 17:28:51 GMT -5
People in general are terrible at assessing risk. Truly terrible. The transmission rates during flights are almost negligible.
Same with all the hygiene theater. We’re stressing people out and wasting time sanitizing everything when that is not how it’s spread.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 17:38:49 GMT -5
People in general are terrible at assessing risk. Truly terrible. The transmission rates during flights are almost negligible. Same with all the hygiene theater. We’re stressing people out and wasting time sanitizing everything when that is not how it’s spread. This. Some lady who wants to scream at me outside on a hiking trail because I’m not wearing a mask, is an idiot. That is not how this virus is spread. Nobody is getting this virus passing by somebody on a trail for 0.1 seconds outside. (Actually her stopping to scream is more likely to cause an issue, lots of respiratory droplets and spittle in all that yelling, Karen...) None of that is based on actual science or medicine. None of it. It’s theater to make people feel better, or shit to put on the TV. It’s not reality. |
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 18:16:57 GMT -5
You make it seem like many or even most people in this thread are pro- Covid-shaming. The title of the thread and the topic of the thread is “virus shaming”. I’m referring to that. |
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Post by villanelle on Oct 13, 2020 19:12:43 GMT -5
You make it seem like many or even most people in this thread are pro- Covid-shaming. Could you please explain who you are referring to? I certainly wouldn't tell someone they are an asshole for smoking or eating poorly or for going to a wedding in fall 2020. I don't think they are less than a human. You mention accepting responsibility for the consequences. One of the issues with Covid is that your [global] actions create consequences for me [global, and also not global]. A rose garden ceremony has made people who live in my metro area sick. They chose to do that, and now that means that their actions have potential consequences for other people. Their actions get the secret service workers sick, and the white house staff sick. And those people get the grocery story worker sick. That grocery store worker may be following every protocol to the letter. He may be exceptionally cautious. But the Rose Garden people's actions have consequences for him. Diabetes and tooth decay have personal consequences. (To the extent that they have larger consequences for society, it is at least far, far less direct.) And yes, your job is to treat people's health. You'd be a shitty dentist if you added shaming to that. It would be grossly unprofessional. That's a different standard than applies outside of a professional environment. I still wouldn't shame anyone who was sick, but I will judge behaviors I consider to be selfish and reckless. It may all be part of living in a society, but if it's preventable or able to be mitigated, then another part of living in society is thinking of others. Wouldn't society be far, far better off if people were more willing to sacrifice individually for the greater good? Isn't refusal to do that a big ol' GoFuck yourself to one's fellow man? You've said, repeatedly, how shitty human beings are. But when some of us are discussing disapproval at a specific aspect of that shittiness--the refusal to sacrifice for the greater good or think of others when making these decisions--you seem to get angry and indignant and disgusted. I just think that there’s a lot of things people are considering” selfish and reckless” that I think aren’t as selfish and reckless as others do. For example: I got on an airplane this weekend. I wore my mask, did everything I was supposed to do. One of my cousins told me I was “morally reprehensible” for doing so. I disagree. 🤷♀️ So now we aren't just talking about shaming? Now we are talking about just what someone quietly considers "selfish and reckless"? I'm having trouble keeping track of the goal post. |
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Post by Sprockey on Oct 13, 2020 19:17:46 GMT -5
No one i know in my immediate circle has gotten Covid (thank goodness) , so i haven't gotten an opportunity to shame them 😥
Mostly I'm discussing the morons I see in the news.
But I do have a few friends I will slap if they get sick because I see them not following suggested precautions.
And then I will do what I can to help them through it. That's how I roll....
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 13, 2020 20:59:02 GMT -5
I just think that there’s a lot of things people are considering” selfish and reckless” that I think aren’t as selfish and reckless as others do. For example: I got on an airplane this weekend. I wore my mask, did everything I was supposed to do. One of my cousins told me I was “morally reprehensible” for doing so. I disagree. 🤷♀️ So now we aren't just talking about shaming? Now we are talking about just what someone quietly considers "selfish and reckless"? I'm having trouble keeping track of the goal post. Maybe try reading it again. Sometimes that helps me when I get confused. |
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Post by justthinking on Oct 13, 2020 21:47:18 GMT -5
So now we aren't just talking about shaming? Now we are talking about just what someone quietly considers "selfish and reckless"? I'm having trouble keeping track of the goal post. Maybe try reading it again. Sometimes that helps me when I get confused. Really? You are being a total jerk. |
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Post by Tpatt100 on Oct 14, 2020 5:36:05 GMT -5
According to the CDC Most of these patients wore their masks... still got sick... the vast majority. I’m really curious at how all the judging and criticism of sick folks looks in 10-20 years. I think it’s a tough look already.  I’ve seen screenshots of this study on social media being posted by all the mask deniers/it’s a hoax types. I need to find the actual study but if I remember reading it correctly these were all people who regularly came into “close” contact with people they knew had Covid. The masks were never meant to help people who go into known close contact environments with people who have Covid.... the masks were meant only for droplets that carry Covid being transmitted by a person “with” Covid. People who work in healthcare catch Covid because they are in a much higher risk environment. Cloth masks are only a small part of prevention but I still regularly see men not washing their hands after using the toilet in a public restroom so I assume they are not doing much in general as well. |
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Post by Tpatt100 on Oct 14, 2020 5:50:51 GMT -5
Found it www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6936a5-H.pdfThis was part of the study that showed increase infections from going to a restaurant where people typically only wear a mask to enter. Restaurant dining was a much higher risk activity due to close contact and air circulation. If 42 percent of the close contacts were in the household then masks wouldn’t matter because the person is in a high risk environment and wouldn’t be wearing a mask most of the time anyways. I can wear a mask most of the time but if I share a bed everyday with somebody who has Covid and probably unknown at the time then I am exposing myself most of the time without a mask anyways. Along with hugging/kissing/shared household surfaces, etc. |
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Post by Eli on Oct 14, 2020 8:41:01 GMT -5
If I get Covid, it will be from work. My district insists on face to face instruction in the building even for those of use who teaching 100% virtually. So far, a potential Covid student had a parent refuse to pick them up so they sat in the quarantine room all day, but was sent BACK in to the classroom to get their belongings before dismissal. Another potential case was traipsed through the school before being brought the "quarantine" room. There have also been several students with no masks walking around the halls.
So I won't judge people who become positive, but I have absolutely witnessed some judgment from all across the spectrum, including my Governor who seems to think everyone gets it from being irresponsible. I wear my mask, I order groceries, haven't seen my mom since school started, only do outdoor small group gatherings. The only place I feel exposed is at work.
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Post by Peanut on Oct 14, 2020 9:32:57 GMT -5
People in general are terrible at assessing risk. Truly terrible. The transmission rates during flights are almost negligible. Same with all the hygiene theater. We’re stressing people out and wasting time sanitizing everything when that is not how it’s spread. This. Some lady who wants to scream at me outside on a hiking trail because I’m not wearing a mask, is an idiot. That is not how this virus is spread. Nobody is getting this virus passing by somebody on a trail for 0.1 seconds outside. (Actually her stopping to scream is more likely to cause an issue, lots of respiratory droplets and spittle in all that yelling, Karen...) None of that is based on actual science or medicine. None of it. It’s theater to make people feel better, or shit to put on the TV. It’s not reality. "Hygiene theater" is sometimes a way for individuals to control a small part of something that oftentimes feels so far out of their control. When I see it (or perform it), I try to consider it a form of prayer or meditation, as opposed to theatrics. Perhaps one day it will be considered a form of foolish superstition, like a less bizarre version of the machinations of Christian flagellants during the bubonic plague era. While walking outdoors on the nearby trails, I will gladly don my mask when encountering others in close proximity. Consider it a polite courtesy, like a silent version of the empty greeting frequently proffered to a stranger, "How are you doing today?" (I may not really care, I'm being kind and making an effort.) ***My possible descendants are hereby granted permission to laugh at my ever-ready pump of hand sanitizer in perpetual position in my car's cupholder.*** |
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Post by Mamapalooza on Oct 16, 2020 14:46:08 GMT -5
Shaming anyone for getting Covid would be pretty lame. Nothing is without risk, and the overall risk from this is about on par with the flu. Do people get shamed for getting the flu, because I don't recall that except maybe toward those health care workers who resisted the vaccine.
If politicians and health experts got on TV every day and announced the number of national car crashes, charted all the injuries, hospitalizations and deaths from those car crashes, day after day for 7 months, no one would look at their cars the same way again. And you can bet people would start shaming others for the stupidity of taking that risk in getting into a car and having a crash. The daily hype around Covid has gotten overblown IMO. And unlike a vaccine, the masks are an easily visible way to gauge the risk someone else appears to present.
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Post by Sprockey on Oct 16, 2020 15:38:49 GMT -5
I'm only blaming those i deem reckless.
I'm a good arbiter of such. lol
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Post by nansel on Oct 16, 2020 16:05:17 GMT -5
My job involves a very hefty dose of moderating what I say vs what I think.  I can't imagine ever saying anything to anyone, but I'm sure going to wonder. Although, if I happen to knowingly meet the doofus who went to the bars downtown here and spread it to 60 people, I might turn that filter off. |
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I can't imagine ever saying anything to anyone, but I'm sure going to wonder. Although, if I happen to knowingly meet the doofus who went to the bars downtown here and spread it to 60 people, I might turn that filter off.