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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 8:50:14 GMT -5
I am hearing from more and more patients and friends who have Covid that they are treated like lepers, and that instead of compassion for being ill, they are shamed and subject to interrogation on what they were doing and how they got it.
When does concern for public health transition into harassment and judgment?
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Post by marianparoo on Oct 11, 2020 8:57:44 GMT -5
It shouldn't. But I have to say that some groups are bringing it upon themselves. I'm tired of being Marian the Merciless sometimes, but then I see people refusing to do something as simple as putting of a mask out of ignorance, arrogance and whatever. Ditto refusing to responsibly socially distance.
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 8:59:49 GMT -5
I wonder, where is the line? Because I see older people getting it from their daughter who lives out of state and they miss her. Or someone held a small wedding. Most people aren’t being jerks. They’re just doing normal life things.
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Post by justthinking on Oct 11, 2020 9:10:44 GMT -5
Many people who catch covid are exposed in perfectly innocent ways. Others are exposed because they just aren't careful at all. I won't shame people, but I will have less sympathy for someone who caught covid because they went to crowded mask-free bars than for someone who caught covid because they work in an essential job and were exposed at work.
Right now I feel a lot like I do about vaccines. Anti-vaxxers benefit from the fact I (and a majority of other parents), vaccinate my children. They galavant around all high and mighty talking about how their kids aren't catching those diseases even though they didn't vax so they have super duper immune systems, when in reality their kids aren't getting sick because most people do vax. There are a lot of people on my fb feed going on big vacations during covid and not getting sick, and I am the sucker sitting home unless I have to go out and wearing my mask when I do go out so I can be part of the solution...while they galavant around claiming it is no big deal and they aren't going to live life in fear and it is unconstitutional to require masks and all that crap. Some times I just want to say to heck with it all and go have fun too...but I refuse to risk exposing a whole elementary school full of kiddos because I was too selfish to stay home.
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Post by GiftOfFlavor on Oct 11, 2020 10:59:30 GMT -5
Do we feel that way about other diseases? People with HIV - do we shame them for doing something that many people do? People who are obese and have a heart attack - do we blame them for their illness and shun them? I’ll never talk to Aunt Mary again because she got fat and ended up in the ICU! People who get lung cancer? Do we act towards them with hostility and ask them how many packs a day they smoke?
As a healthcare provider I find it disturbing. Illness happens and it’s not a good thing. For fucks sake can’t humans EVER be kind?
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Post by justthinking on Oct 11, 2020 11:35:10 GMT -5
Do we feel that way about other diseases? People with HIV - do we shame them for doing something that many people do? People who are obese and have a heart attack - do we blame them for their illness and shun them? I’ll never talk to Aunt Mary again because she got fat and ended up in the ICU! People who get lung cancer? Do we act towards them with hostility and ask them how many packs a day they smoke? As a healthcare provider I find it disturbing. Illness happens and it’s not a good thing. For fucks sake can’t humans EVER be kind? If this is aimed at me, let me be clear: I am not shaming anyone for catching covid. I just have less sympathy if the were not taking any precautions. When you know the possibility of illness exists but refuse to take even the most simple precautions because an idiot who lives in the white house with access to medical care none of the rest of us have access to says a mask isn't necessary, you are being an idiot. I won't judge you if you get sick, but I already judge your choice to believe trump over science.
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Post by stellarfeller on Oct 11, 2020 11:47:21 GMT -5
Do we feel that way about other diseases? People with HIV - do we shame them for doing something that many people do? People who are obese and have a heart attack - do we blame them for their illness and shun them? I’ll never talk to Aunt Mary again because she got fat and ended up in the ICU! People who get lung cancer? Do we act towards them with hostility and ask them how many packs a day they smoke? As a healthcare provider I find it disturbing. Illness happens and it’s not a good thing. For fucks sake can’t humans EVER be kind? If someone goes out and deliberately engages in behaviours that are known to transmit HIV, especially after all these years when those disease vectors are well known - then no, I’m not going to feel worse about that than about a newborn baby who gets HIV from their mother. Same with COVID - you go out and engage in risky behaviours when the risks are known, and the preventative mechanisms just as well known, well, 🤷🏽♀️ Obesity is a strawman because it is not infectious.
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 11:52:11 GMT -5
It’s so much blaming the wrong people. The real problem is an absolute lack of reasonable leadership. We have had MONTHS to figure out how to live with this, but instead people are just told to never see their friends and family, to never hold weddings and funerals, to not attend church, to not have their children educated, to shut down their small businesses, to just stay home and go broke and circle into depression. It should not be surprising when people say “fuck that” and push back. Had we any sort of functional government in this country we wouldn’t be here, so I just cannot bring myself to be angry at sick people instead of the oligarchy.
Everyone has a different risk tolerance, and very few people understand what is actually risky vs what is not. We have towns banning Trick or Treating, which is actually a very low risk activity! We should be encouraging it! I had a patient recently who was horrified that people in the waiting room were actually sitting in chairs. We had a good talk about how transmission doesn’t work that way. For every person who is being cautious, I guarantee there is someone out there who thinks you are reckless.
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Post by villanelle on Oct 11, 2020 13:22:24 GMT -5
Do we feel that way about other diseases? People with HIV - do we shame them for doing something that many people do? People who are obese and have a heart attack - do we blame them for their illness and shun them? I’ll never talk to Aunt Mary again because she got fat and ended up in the ICU! People who get lung cancer? Do we act towards them with hostility and ask them how many packs a day they smoke? As a healthcare provider I find it disturbing. Illness happens and it’s not a good thing. For fucks sake can’t humans EVER be kind? I think both HIV and especially a heart attack are different than Covid. One can't catch a heart attack, and it's fairly easy to not catch HIV (once we understood it). I don't think health care providers should every shame--it's grossly unprofessional. But if someone contributes to what could be considered the worst epidemic this country has seen in a century because they couldn't stay out of a bar? I'm think some judgment is appropriate. When you make selfish decisions that put the health of other people at risk (the people who work in your grocery store and deliver your Ubereats and work in your office building and treat your health conditions), isn't that exactly the kind of thing that many people would have strong negative feelings about? To be very clear, I am well aware that not all people who catch the Covid do so from incidents like that. (Part of the issue is that people catch it doing unavoidable things, like working. Which is all the more reason to do everything we can to get it under control.) So if people likely catch it from... say a large ceremony with absolutely no social distancing, people seated shoulder to shoulder, and where almost no one is wearing a mask? I do think that's behavior that deserves some judgment, yet.
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 13:25:43 GMT -5
I think this is somewhat similar to the early days of HIV, before it was known how to effect manage it. People were terrified of having sex, period, and those who contracted it were judged promiscuous.
It’s not reasonable to tell people to just not socialize indefinitely, just as it is not reasonable to tell people to never have sex again. People won’t obey, and why should they? They have a different risk vs benefit ratio. Then there is the whole issue of restaurant and bar owners losing their livelihood.
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Post by villanelle on Oct 11, 2020 13:30:38 GMT -5
It’s so much blaming the wrong people. The real problem is an absolute lack of reasonable leadership. We have had MONTHS to figure out how to live with this, but instead people are just told to never see their friends and family, to never hold weddings and funerals, to not attend church, to not have their children educated, to shut down their small businesses, to just stay home and go broke and circle into depression. It should not be surprising when people say “fuck that” and push back. Had we any sort of functional government in this country we wouldn’t be here, so I just cannot bring myself to be angry at sick people instead of the oligarchy. Everyone has a different risk tolerance, and very few people understand what is actually risky vs what is not. We have towns banning Trick or Treating, which is actually a very low risk activity! We should be encouraging it! I had a patient recently who was horrified that people in the waiting room were actually sitting in chairs. We had a good talk about how transmission doesn’t work that way. For every person who is being cautious, I guarantee there is someone out there who thinks you are reckless. I do agree with most of this. It shouldn't have come to this, and that's a massive failure of leadership. We are faced with a situation we never should have been. I look at my friends living overseas and their lives are very different (though they are facing a second wave). I guess I just disagree with the reaction to that. In the face of a situation that we never should have been in, I think all we can do is make the best decisions we can about where we unfortunately are. And that, to me, means being as responsible as we can stand to be. That's going to be different for everyone, and I'm perfectly accepting of a lot of people and behaviors whose lines are far more liberal than mine. But yes, there is a point at which I do feel judgement about the behaviors (whether they catch Covid, or not).
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 13:58:18 GMT -5
On a casual level of observation, it seems to me that people have a different reaction along the lines of whether or not they could ever stay home in the first place. Around here, hardly anyone ever stopped working. It’s a whole lot of agriculture and manufacturing. So to tell people “hey, keep working at the turkey processing plant where you stand shoulder to shoulder. The nation needs you to sacrifice [i.e. people richer than you need their groceries delivered to they can stay home and be safe]. But don’t you dare go to the bar.” It is not shocking to me in the slightest that the reaction is a big ‘ol eff you.
Its not strictly along the lines, but I notice it. I worked from home on and off for about three weeks and then have been in the office. Dh always went to work. So I have friends who have barely left their homes since March. They perceive grocery shopping as scary and fraught with risk, whereas I think nothing of it. I stopped at the coffee shop yesterday morning, was the only one wearing a mask, chatted and was friendly with people there the whole time. NBD. If like a whole different world that I hear about but don’t experience.
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Post by deeniereenie on Oct 11, 2020 15:01:23 GMT -5
I agree.
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Post by villanelle on Oct 11, 2020 15:51:19 GMT -5
On a casual level of observation, it seems to me that people have a different reaction along the lines of whether or not they could ever stay home in the first place. Around here, hardly anyone ever stopped working. It’s a whole lot of agriculture and manufacturing. So to tell people “hey, keep working at the turkey processing plant where you stand shoulder to shoulder. The nation needs you to sacrifice [i.e. people richer than you need their groceries delivered to they can stay home and be safe]. But don’t you dare go to the bar.” It is not shocking to me in the slightest that the reaction is a big ‘ol eff you. Its not strictly along the lines, but I notice it. I worked from home on and off for about three weeks and then have been in the office. Dh always went to work. So I have friends who have barely left their homes since March. They perceive grocery shopping as scary and fraught with risk, whereas I think nothing of it. I stopped at the coffee shop yesterday morning, was the only one wearing a mask, chatted and was friendly with people there the whole time. NBD. If like a whole different world that I hear about but don’t experience. Interesting observation. DH is going to work 4-5 days a week. That actually makes me feel more strongly about staying home as much as I can, and as much as we can other than his work stuff. I'm one of those people who has barely left my home since March. Mostly, it's because I can. Do I miss going out? Of course. But it feels to me like a way I can contribute. And DH can't stay home from work, so to me, that tips the scales toward him being a possible spreader, which is all the more reason to make up for it where we can. Not for "me to be safe", but for me to be one less possible spreader. I do understand the "eff you" reaction, but to me, that's cutting off the nose to spite the face. The more this shit spreads, the more suffering there is (in many, many ways, and not just among those who get sick). So if one wants either a resumption of normal or to decrease the likelihood of themselves or someone else getting it, the "eff you, I'm gonna go to a bar because I fucking can and because the bourgeois requires me to go to my job to serve them" makes that person worse off, not better. Again, I understand the feelings. (And I think those goes back to the earlier comments about the lack of effective governmental response, too. ) But it seems counterproductive. It's also interesting to me that friends with somewhat similar feelings to those you express seem to be changing their tune slightly as they and their loved ones get sick. A friend who lives in Idaho has definitely adjuster her tone as her town is hit with this. Her teenaged son, who was back to high school (part-time, I believe) is now ill. She's high risk, and has a high risk grandparent living in their home, and suddenly it's "everyone, stay home and wear a mask". (Thus far, the son is doing well, and is isolated in the home, as isolated as one can be in a home with other people, and they are all quarantined. Grandparents have tested negative so far.) All that said, I don't think that groceries are an unnecessary trip. But bars and restaurants--especially dining indoors--are. I have friends who are doing that (restaurants) and while I wish they wouldn't because I know they could NOT and that would be a contribution toward us getting back to normal some day, it seems to be in moderation, they are generally safe and masked, and I don't think negatively about them for it. I can think it's a bad idea, while not thinking they are shitty people.
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 16:20:20 GMT -5
And that’ll why I am not judging. One person’s moderation is another’s reckless, and another’s paranoid.
The thing that strikes me about restaurants and bars, is that they have been hit hardest by lockdowns. People believe that by going out they are serving their community. And they’re not wrong. The hospitality industry brings vibrancy and revenue to towns and cities. If we don’t help those businesses survive, how does, for example, tourism in my resort/fishing/vacation town survive in the long term? And if tourism does survive, what happens to jobs and tax base and everything else? It’s easy to paint this as a good choice vs bad choice scenario but it’s more complex than that.
It’s easy for me to say that I am doing the right thing by being as cautious as I am. I have a very clear knowledge of how transmission works. There are some risks I am willing to take and some that I am not, For me, it’s all a very conscious decision. While not everyone has the same tools at hand that I have, they too weigh the risks and benefits and make their decision. Their risks and benefits may not be readily appear to me, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there and just as valid as mine.
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Post by maurinsky on Oct 11, 2020 16:40:09 GMT -5
I personally have nothing but sympathy and compassion for people who catch COVID. A lot of places have not provided clear guidelines, people don't always think about how many people other people are interacting with, etc. It's hard to change how you live your life.
I do judge leaders who actively work to spread the disease with mis/disinformation.
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Post by justthinking on Oct 11, 2020 16:43:16 GMT -5
And that’ll why I am not judging. One person’s moderation is another’s reckless, and another’s paranoid. The thing that strikes me about restaurants and bars, is that they have been hit hardest by lockdowns. People believe that by going out they are serving their community. And they’re not wrong. The hospitality industry brings vibrancy and revenue to towns and cities. If we don’t help those businesses survive, how does, for example, tourism in my resort/fishing/vacation town survive in the long term? And if tourism does survive, what happens to jobs and tax base and everything else? It’s easy to paint this as a good choice vs bad choice scenario but it’s more complex than that. It’s easy for me to say that I am doing the right thing by being as cautious as I am. I have a very clear knowledge of how transmission works. There are some risks I am willing to take and some that I am not, For me, it’s all a very conscious decision. While not everyone has the same tools at hand that I have, they too weigh the risks and benefits and make their decision. Their risks and benefits may not be readily appear to me, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there and just as valid as mine. And this goes back to the lack of effective governmental response. Big banks and corporations were bailed out. Then, some money was designated for small businesses, but much of that was not traced and a lot of what was traced went to things like Kanye West and (at least in my town) churches who have private schools which had already collected state tuition vouchers for the year. Most of my friends who own actual small businesses got nothing. Then people received a small stimulus payment 6 months ago and unemployed individuals received additional unemployment for several weeks. After that, nothing. Small businesses would be doing much better if individuals were doing better and if more of the small business support had actually gone to small businesses. Restaurants and other hospitality sector businesses would be doing better if targeted aid was available.
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Post by justthinking on Oct 11, 2020 16:55:57 GMT -5
And another tragic loss in this is the performing arts. Most orchestras, live actors, etc. have been unemployed or significantly less employed since March. Arts venues have been shuttered. I am afraid when it is finally safe to have live arts performances there will be no performers or venues. Heck, my own son was just getting started with his jazz combo and had their first three gigs booked and all were cancelled. 😓
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Post by Sprockey on Oct 11, 2020 19:59:39 GMT -5
I am 100% judging people who are acting like there is no pandemic and if you are carrying on like everything is normal and packing yourself into bars and restaurants then yes, i have less sympathy for you if you get sick. 🤷♀️ Some of us have hardly left our house in 6 months in order to stay well and not get anyone else sick. And also so that we CAN get back to normal.
Everything is shit right now with businesses closed, jobs lost, & school being done remotely because people are pretending the virus isn't that bad. These are the people prolonging it for the rest of us.
If you have health issues and indulge in risky behaviors, you are only hurting yourself. That's not the case with this virus. We are ALL affected by your choices.
The numbers are ticking up again and we are probably looking at another shutdown this Fall.
And the people who have been going to weddings, parties and bars will be the biggest complainers 🙄
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Post by alicechalmers on Oct 11, 2020 20:36:54 GMT -5
So what I am hearing is people with Covid being interrogated, and not by health care providers. That’s what I find deeply concerning. Some people have developed a baseline assumption that anyone with Covid has done something “wrong.”
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